I first saw the announcement early last week that APFM had launched a new consumer review site. Because I have a deep dislike for the APFM business model, my immediate question was whether this would be a good thing for the senior housing industry and consumers or just another way for APFM to suck more money out of the industry, while providing little, if any, value.
The launch immediately went on my “must write about” list for this week. Before I had a chance to start writing, I received an email from an APFM PR person wanting to know if I would like to hear more about the site. My first thought was that they had reached out to me because I am a famous senior housing blogger, but apparently that wasn’t it. The real reason is that, in reading the preliminary program for the annual ALFA convention in Charlotte, they saw that Blair Carey, of RetirementHomes.com, and I are doing back-to-back sessions on managing, developing and using your on-line reputation.
I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with a PR representative for Senioradvisor.com and I asked some pretty direct and difficult questions. At the end of our conversation she recommended a further conversation with Eric Seifert, the president of Senioradvisor.com. That conversation will take place on Monday afternoon April 1. What follows is a summary of how the site works.
The Basics
- You can explore the Senioradvisor.com site here.
- The website currently has more than 137,000 senior living properties in their database. To give some perspective, APFM has about 20,000 partner communities so the vast majority of the communities listed are not APFM partners. This is a good thing because it means there is potential for a level playing field.
- The listing for each site includes the name of the community and the street address, but the only phone number is for APFM. As an experiment I called the APFM number and asked about a random non-member (or at least non-rated) community. The representative told me they had no information about the community and suggested I look it up in the phone book or call 411.
- The site currently has more than 17,000 reviews. At least today, all of the reviews come from registered consumers at APFM and were submitted in the last three months. As a result only APFM partner communities have any reviews. A curious note: it appears many of the partner communities don’t have any reviews. This could mean they received no referrals from APFM, that the reviews were so bad they were not included or that people just did not submit reviews.
- Each senior community listed (both partner and non-partner communities) has the ability to claim their listing. This will enable them to respond to negative or erroneous complaints. In addition, they will be able to ask (coerce?) those individuals who write negative ratings to remove or modify them.
- It is theoretically possible for a non-APFM registered consumer to write a review on partner and non-partner communities but, before the review is posted, it will be reviewed by someone at SeniorAdvisor.com. It is unclear how the review process works and how long it will take for any given review to be published.
- I spent some time looking at the reviews for several dozen senior communities in about half a dozen market areas across the country. The majority of them had 4 & 5 star ratings. I could not find a single individual review or overall review that was less than 3 stars. Even with those with 3 star ratings the comments were generally positive or neutral.
- I don’t know for sure, but it is hard to imagine that no one ever rated a single partner below 3, so I suspect those consumer reviews didn’t make the cut.
I continue to be suspicious that this website will not be a level playing field. I have fair number of additional questions I will be asking Eric tomorrow. If you have questions you think I should be asking, post them here (not in a LinkedIn Group, because it likely will not make the cut), before 1pm PDT on Monday April 1 and I will do my best to include them in my conversation. I will present “rest of the story” on Tuesday or Wednesday evening this week.
I totally agree and will be very interested to hear the outcome of your meeting.
My feeling is that if the community is using good marketing strategies they have no need for APFM and would benefit more from using the money spent with APFM on innovative marketing and developing excellence in their community from the first point of contact.
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention and for your organized explanation of what is happening. I have the same deep dislike (to say the least) for this business model that you have. I’m also not convinced that the reviews are real reviews and not just something created by APFM. Why don’t they include, with permission, the name of the reviewer? I’m also wondering if the “partner” communities were notified about the launching of this website. Basically, APFM wants all initial calls to any senior living community in the country to go through them. There is a huge ethical issue here and providers really need to work together to either stop working with these agencies (my preference) or to impose some regulations on them.
Hi Steve,
Thank you for caring about this process. Of course there are many local placement agencies who work the same way, taking a month’s rent (the first one!) for placement. In fact, APFM is only in Florida since mid-2012 because of regulations against those type of arrangements. Which of course doesn’t stop any of it.
I DON’T advocate MORE government interference. Sometimes we need to fill the beds, and as the placement services are “free” to the consumer, they go through them. We pay the month’s fee, not because all of them necessarily Earn it, but because we need the clients and they’re appropriate for our home (near the adult children’s home, we are in their price range, the family/senior likes healthy eating and we do a lot more of that than others, they like music and activities, which we have more of, etc) They choose us because of Us, not because the rep from APFM or any other local or national agency actually Did a lot.
That’s a fact of life, but that said, APFM does qualify them more than most sites. Most sites are a listing and we get an email. Caring.com is beginning to qualify people and even to set appts for touring with us, so that is a big plus over their previous online only model. I’ve talked with some of their reps and informed them for example that VA benefits are expedited if the client is 90 years or older, or they are on Hospice. This is vital info that many people don’t realize or know about, even within the industry.
I have a perfect example right now, a lady was placed with us months ago, with the understanding the VA was in process – that is application Submitted. No, it now seems 6 months later when I said it’s time to begin to pay some of the shortage, that is, to pay more of the agreed rate, with less going to the outstanding balance each month. The family had a fit, said the application was only submitted in January, they didn’t know (whatever – but they never brought me into the conversation b/c they’d misled me and didn’t want to trigger the talk about increasing the interim rate. So it was delayed b/c the placement agent didn’t do what she Very Well could have and Should have done when asking me to take less in the interim – Confirm application submitted and Also Give the Family the Contacts – VA Service Officer, etc to Verify the application they talked about really existed and would be Processed Timely.
Only two of the people I’ve ever dealt with Brings people to the house to tour. I would think they’d do that, the way a real estate agent goes with the customer to show them a potential new home. Now Occasionally appointments are made with the homeowner, who is the one to show the home to the prospect, but not often. They are there protecting their income and doing their job.
APFM does have local reps, and I was somewhat impressed by that difference – they actually visited my home, talked to Residents, saw what we were doing, and mentioned as do most visitors, our home has on average happier, more active Residents, with more activities and interaction, better staff to resident ratio, which is all true. Seeing as the Small ALF has a much smaller profit margin (economies of scale) the month’s rent is a huge part of our income, versus one month for one bed at a larger ALF. I suggest a different scale for small places BUT not so as to steer people to the larger care model inappropriately.
Or at least perhaps a time payment, so that we know it “takes” – where the small alf pays maybe half a month, or pays a third of the fee over 3 months to add up to the full amount, something b/c it’s hard on us.
The other thing is they don’t do much, especially the national ones.
APFM is actually the First national chain I’ve seen with Local reps for face to face. Others seem to do it by phone and email only, which of course ours is such a hands-on, face-to-face world, I can’t imagine them getting a feel for the client, and knowing where to place them, without some physical presence. How about a licensed administrator or nurse to help with assessing them, if we’re going to pay that amount, I mean something to show that they’re adding value to the situation.
And againg the local ones have no excuse for not touring or being more advocates for care, except they’re individuals and eventually the Free Market Works to weed out what’s not working.
So again I DO NOT Ever advocate for more Regulation, which only drives costs up and does nothing for the people who really need the help – seniors, their families and those of us really Helping them. Government people add expense, corruption too often, layers of red tape, delays and ultimately never affect the participants of the market in a positive way. it’s too Gestapo already if you ask me.
I only know my families say I give them their life back, with peace of mind that their folks are well cared for in an environment very like home, and are treated with loving kindness, engaged and stimulated, nurtured and nourished, with as few added (artificial) ingredients as I can manage.
Thanks for listening,
Doreen from Angel House in south FL
I too am thankful that you are taking on this issue & I wish that an organization like Leading Age or ALFA would as well. However, with ALFA’s recent announcement of their partnership with Caring.com (another pay for enhanced placement/recommendation site) that seems highly unlikely.
Many of the current age group researching communities are not internet savvy enough to know the difference between a ‘partner’ community and one that isn’t. Many internet users still don’t understand the difference between paid advertisers & those that achieve their top of page ranking purely through search results. Recently when engaging in secret shopping with another ‘highly regarded’ internet source, for one of the communities owned by the company I work for, I was told that they “couldn’t recommend us” & suggested 3 other places, by name & location, that I might want to consider. Our community is listed on their site but only by name & zip code. We do not play a fee for the basic placement. The 3 that were recommended had photos, full descriptions, etc. My issue with all of the internet directories, to date I have found about 75 internet sites that offer some sort of senior living directory, is the lack of transparency. There is a need to disclose to the user who is paying for the information they are seeing. Those of us that aren’t paying for the placement appear less desirable than those that do by our absence.
I believe that the FCC recently won a case in Arizona against two senior care advisor companies & they are now required to be direct in explaining what ‘in their network’ of communities means. Something similar needs to happen here.
Thank you Steve & please do keep us informed.
Hi Mary, Thanks for your feedback. Search results in Caring.com’s Senior Care Directory — http://www.caring.com/local — include a “sponsored result” label for those listings that are enhanced vs. those that are free/basic listings. Any provider with a free listing may contact our directory listing team to include a photo and service description on the listing at no charge (to do so, please call: 866-824-9209). Also, on Caring.com, consumer reviews may be submitted for any listing (basic or enhanced), and are approved or rejected based solely on the Review Guidelines: http://www.caring.com/about/review_guidelines Listing badges are another feature on the site that help providers stand out and are shown on both enhanced and free listings, including a badge for those communities that are ALFA members, as well as those who have earned the Caring Stars award for service excellence based on consumer ratings and reviews. More info about the annual Caring Stars program is located here: http://www.caring.com/bestseniorcare Please do call us if you have any questions about these free listing features available to senior care providers.
Why don’t consumers just use Yelp for comments about services in the community for elders? Any site with a self-interested investment in the end service may have conflicts of interests with poor reviews. Conversely, it is also up to professionals and consumers to start to develop some quality standards from the consumer point of view regarding these services too. It is not like writing a restaurant review where one has multiple experiences and understands what the norms of service, food quality and decor might be.
BTW, there was a paper published recently about consumer reviews of hospitals gaining traction and it compared Yelp reviews to whether the quality benchmarks in use by review agencies were congruent. For the most part, Yelp reviews of hospitals matched where the hospitals ranked on formal quality reviews. So the point of this comment is: slowly, but increasingly, consumers are turning to sites like Yelp to post reviews.
We should be educating consumers to use third party sites like Yelp to post reviews of services of all types.
From LinkedIn Groups
Steve, I take any “review” resource with a grain of salt.
By Lorie Eber
From LinkedIn Groups
What methods do they use to attract reviewers?
Do they pay people to write reviews?
How do they prevent community owners/operators/employees from writing reviews?
How would they respond if someone wrote a negative review about one of their partner communities?
Do they allow reviews from consumers who did not use APFM to find their community?
By Lynn Ackerman
From LinkedIn Groups
I hope that consumers KNOW that A Place for Mom has a very limited database of places to refer since they charge smaller places 100% of the first month and charge large facilities 75% of their referral’s monthly fee too. There is also so much turnover with their Advisors that it is hard to believe that the new ones really know what they are doing.
By Chris Gutierrez, MBA
I couldn’t agree with Mary Ayers more. It is extrememly irritating to see that ALFA is touting their relationship with Caring.com, but what I saw listed for my particular establishment is pathetic. You would never come tour my home after going to that website. I called ALFA on this and found out very clearly that since I am not paying Caring.com, I will continue to be very poorly represented on their website. As a member of ALFA for many years, I would expect ALFA to make sure I am well represented on a site that they are partnering with. Not the case!
Hi Sara, Thanks for the feedback. Any provider with a free listing may contact our directory listing team to include a photo and service description on the listing at no charge (to do so, please call: 866-824-9209). Also, on Caring.com, consumer reviews may be submitted for any listing (basic or enhanced), and are approved or rejected based solely on the Review Guidelines: http://www.caring.com/about/review_guidelines Listing badges are another feature on the site that help providers stand out and are shown on both enhanced/sponsored and free listings, including a badge for those communities that are ALFA members, as well as those who have earned the Caring Stars award for service excellence based on consumer ratings and reviews. More info about the annual Caring Stars program is located here: http://www.caring.com/bestseniorcare Please do call us if you have any questions about these free listing features available to senior care providers.
Sara….ALFA really said that? I thought they were an advocate for all the ALF’s? Very discouraging to hear that this is what they are telling people.
As a competitor of APFM, I am biased. Nevertheless, AHCA has an excellent website that I rely on more than I would anything else. That website gives fine dates, amounts, reasons, and rectifications. Nothing beats an unannounced visit to see, smell, and surmise the quality of the establishment. Another thing that is supremely important, and often overlooked, is the licensure types of the facility. For instance, is it really necessary that an elderly person (without dementia) be placed in a facility that has “limited mental health” licensure (?) Maybe not. I think it’s important to take all factors into consideration – including how “hungry” the ALF (or board and care) is. The types of people they are accepting, may not be the best suited for the community. Ultimately, nothing beats an assessment for matching needs, finances, and desires of the person looking for an ALF.
All the great feedback on this forum once again proves that the “referral model”, is purely focused on filling beds, and not really helping families get an a true inside look at senior care. GoldenReviews.com was launched specifically to address this issue. Our mission is to bring transparency to senior care, and we award our independent third-party mark of quality, that is based PURELY on feedback from reviewers.
We encourage ALL care providers to build their profile on our site by submitting their photos, personalized community description and sign up to receive alerts when reviews are submitted on their community. We WANT communities to hear back from their residents and their families and to encourage feedback from everyday visits. It’s sad that hotels and muffler shops and restaurants have quickly realized that good reviews must be made part of their every day business model; yet so few senior care communities have proactively made it their mission to build a good online reputation.
We hope that we can truly make a difference in the senior care industry. Please join the mission by visiting us at http://www.goldenreviews.com
I used to work for A Place for Mom as a senior advisor and though I was successful, I left because of the company’s new direction and strategy. The management was from Expedia and they implemented a high volume internet call center model replacing the personal and local sales teams. The Senior Advisors’ must be tethered to the phone in order to “hit their goals”. That combined with very high metrics to hit in order to keep one’s job was why I left. I now work for a local placement company. I’m wondering if this new website is part of their overall strategy – call center, automation and ultimately reduction of their Senior Advisors
Steve, have you heard that A Place for Mom is now going to charge board and care homes 120% of the monthly rate for rent and care and 90% to the larger communities? I help my wife with our board and care homes in Pasadena and to think that a care community can survive AND provide quality care for their residents during the first two months of their care is preposterous.
A Place for Mom’s “Advisors” that hit their quota are in the Bahamas right now on the trips that they won. I guess when you charge large RCFEs 90% and board and care homes 120% of a monthly rate for the clients you move in there and then may move back out, you can afford to send your sales people to the Bahamas. Makes me sick..
A Place for Mom’s “Advisors” that hit their quota are in the Bahamas right now on the trips that they won. I guess when you charge large RCFEs 90% and board and care homes 120% of a monthly rate for the clients you move in there and then may move back out, you can afford to send your sales people to the Bahamas. A Place for Mom is now going to charge board and care homes 120% of the monthly rate for rent and care and 90% to the larger communities? I help my wife with our board and care homes in Pasadena and to think that a care community can survive AND provide quality care for their residents during the first two months of their care is preposterous.